Can we do something about the team damage?

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evirdrevo
Posts: 125
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by evirdrevo » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:28 pm

@gjiro

Decreasing the amount of fops isn't the issue. Ofcourse I know some tard (veltins) will just take every single charge and making any normal fops play impossible for the other guys, but at least with three fops you can start the game as fops and throw that first can, which is crucial to set up your team and get control of the map. I know the tard camping in spawn will take all the 'firepowers' but at least give me the option to go fops and play front line. On fueldepot I don't mind just throwing packs at the fueldump bridge or NE cave exit. My medics will take great care for me and I can shoot most of the times and take the bullets for the medics who are staying alive and reloading.

You are making a great point why heavy weapons shouldn't be limited to 2. Heavy weapons are annoying and I still think mortar fires too fast, but they are part of the game and they bring chaos. If it is just a bunch of axis medics shooting at the incoming allies, the game gets boring fast. The heavy weapons and field opses is what makes hirntot actual fun, it brings chaos and randomness, instead of all the pubs with 12vs12 medics which died for a good reason.

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GJIROKASTRA
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by GJIROKASTRA » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:32 am

Some time ago Harlekin himself was present at hirnlos to breathe life to it. The population started to increase slowly, including regular dorks from hirntot such as myself or Qpaq. What our orange-nicknamed beloved friend started to commence you can easily guess by yourself - spawnkill mortaring while 6vs6 (anyway the lowest number of players necessary for unblocking heavy weapons). Harlekin was greatly impressed by this magnificent performance and the very next day all heavy weapons were off-limits on server. I guess that was very good decision given the fact hirnlos is very much alive today compared to good-old constant 0vs0.
Just a small digression to stir things up around S3AL's best friend, and to point out that radical steps might provide excellent results.

What i meant about heavy weapons in my previous post: the idea behind it's limitation could be partially employed for fops class. So people would respect this class better - the standard course of things is going this way: 0 fops->I switch class as team clearly needs it to advance-> eventually i perform successful airstrike/artillery (1/2 kills)->3 fops out of fucking nowhere. I do seldom play fops of course, but i see this pattern since I can remember. This is psychological thing i reckon, and this is one of the reason why hw/stick is limited. if people are waiting considerable amount of time for panzer/rifle, wouldnt it be bad to wait for field ops?
I only write this because I view players class choice as reccuring problem (since admins cant really be excpected to !put single players against their will), and 3rd field ops (and 3rd cov + 4/5th eng, but like i said it would be too radical) is most common and dumbest choice winch is usually cosiderably influencing the team efficiency. Most of the time one of those 2 fopses are xp whoring with ammo anyways - do players really need 150 rounds when instant-space-pressing-after-death ratio is increasing dramatically due to lack of revives? Team with 3 fops, accompanied usually with huge other class representation excluding meds usually prones for camping and frustrating style of playing.
And of course, I see clearly your point of being first-spawn can tosser/battle ammo provider - but such tactics used by nerds like yourself who actually happen to know what they're doing, are just a teardrop in a fucking ocean of "imma pick fops because can is fun and those 4medics in 14 players team are just about to be enough". Or maybe I'm mad not seing everything.

S3AL
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:50 pm

Heavy weapons (except for mortar) are essential to ET, fops too. Never tried to argue against that. The game wouldnt be what it is without them.

Having said that, no doubt whatsoever that both fops and heavy weapon classes become extremely OP after lvl2, and the more players u got on the server the more OP they are. Try and play lvl3 fops in a 6on6 game and then try it in a 12vs12 game - You'll be doing the same shit... clicking some artys somewhere but you'll get 2-3x more frags in a 12vs12 just because its overcrowded, players cant move half of the time because they're blocking each other and maps are too tiny to provide fun experience with that amount of spam + teamdamage that both come mostly from fops and heavy weapons. Why u think no one ever played mortar in 6on6? Cos its fucking useless, u'll get 1 frag maybe if u get lucky - no people. ET was pretty much declared a 6on6 max game, all the leagues, clan base crap and whatever was 6on6, 5on5, or 3on3. So someone intelligent probably figured out... 'alright, maps are of XY size and ideally they'd be played out as 6on6' - kudos to that guy, whoever he was. He was right. Pubs? Sure, you can break the limits there, its just all for fun anyway. Some stuff however, is just no fun at all because it ruins it for everyone except for the person playing the toxic way.

I'll say this once more, and I thought this through thoroughly, the best thing you can do is to limit ALL CLASSES to lvl2. Thats it. No more double panzers, no more high charge medics and green needles, no more 8-drop arty fopses who can just infinitely keep clicking on a location without engaging in a battle in any way. It's so easy really... the classes remain, their weapons remain, they're just less impactful and consequently(positively) it will reduce all the team damage and the spam and it might even boost playing for objective rather than just sitting somewhere and clicking shit because you wont have charge to do that constantly on lower levels.

Mortar - voted by 75% to remove it, so lets just end this discussion once and for all. The weapon is absolute cancer. You cant see it and react to it + you cant counter it - no way in hell you'll ever be able to get yourself all the way to allies spawn to kill a mortar. Just a trash unbalanced OP weapon which allows anyone with primary school math knowledge to rock 50-60 frags per map - pretty much by an accident. It was voted out to be removed, so obviously its trash considered by majority, but it wont get removed, we dealt with that. But please ... lets just stop calling mortar a class thats relevant to hirntot, because it aint, its the opposite - it was voted out, okay?

evirdrevo
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by evirdrevo » Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:53 pm

> no more high charge medics and green needles

I never saw green needles on hirntot.

Lowering all classes to lvl2 for the whole campaign will kill the server/userbase.

S3AL
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:37 pm

evirdrevo wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:53 pm
I never saw green needles on hirntot.
Lvl3 first aid gives you green needle. I guess that tells you how shit of a medic you are when you never reached level 3 :D
evirdrevo wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:53 pm
Lowering all classes to lvl2 for the whole campaign will kill the server/userbase.
Yes and if we dont go to church we will burn in hell - thats approx the quality of the statement you just made, random nonsense.

Btw, since I have a feeling you might be misunderstanding - when I say lower to lvl2, i dont mean general skills - battlesense, lightweapons, whatever else is shared. I mean class specific skill (signals for fops, first aid for medics, heavy weapons for heavyweapon players, engineering for engs, covert ops for covert opses). Cornn knows what Im talking about, when he talks about it he's referring to class specific skill.

evirdrevo
Posts: 125
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by evirdrevo » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:00 am

Afaik adrenaline has been disabled for ages, though you actually need to reach medic lvl 4 to find out so I obviously dont have a clue :p But after googling you probably ment full heals, yeah those are annoying as fuck, but not OP. I've been playing with cg_drawgun 0 for ages, so I rly don't have any clue about those needles color.

Pub people love to level their skills, you'll drive away a lot of the regulars if you disable it. I really don't care about it, but I'm sure other ppl do. I was also referring to class specific skills and stand by my point of view.

S3AL
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:21 am

Adrenaline is red needle. Green needle is full heal, and its definitely OP - insta full hp + 2 secs shield, pretty gross.

My opinion - dont think anyone gives a shit about leveling besides the classic toxic circle - veltins, monty, qpaq and similar shits. Qpq plays mortar on gr just to level up and switches to panz, shit fopses sit behind mortars or in spawn and drop tones of ammo to level up to that double-arty-airstrike shit. We'll always come back to same player names on any toxic-gameplay subject, its always them teamkilling, sitting in spawn clicking stuff, annoying everyone.

Hirntot aint gonna lose any playerbase. If someone quits hirntot they are essentially quitting ET because there arent any other servers to go to. If HBC was alive, sure monty and veltins would go there if we blocked leveling up - and we'd all be happy, Qpaq wouldnt go, believe you me. I already said this once: hirntot has a pretty monopolistic position at the moment - trying out some new stuff for 2weeks/1month wouldnt cause any changes in playerbase imo. Would be a much more fun place though. I have a strong feeling the toxic minority is constantly being protected out of fear of possibility of losing a few players, which is pretty much a myth.

Can we try this on one map? Oasis I guess. Limit all class based ranks to lvl2, lets see who'll even notice (I already have a prediction). Make it a christmas party.

evirdrevo
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by evirdrevo » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:49 pm

I have seen many pubs die because they tried out new stuff, ghostworks and nexus for example. They used to have huge playerbases. The latter started changing maps constantly, throwing in really shit maps among the mix, changing too much stuff and people left.

If you're the last active ETpro server remaining you probably did something right, so I wouldn't change a winning formule. Small incremental changes, sure. Big overhauls, big no no no.

Put oasis in the first three maps, limit fops to lvl2 in those maps. I'd also lower the mortar rate of fire or usage of charge. Nevertheless the mortar is a good weapon to break down some axis defences like the oasis 'kreaturen' defence where you keep control of the main exit or the NE cave defence on fueldepot which can really lock things down unless you got smart fopses or a mortar who can spam the axis ammo/medic dropspot at the tree. There is a place for mortar, it's just abused to spam heavies at the axis spawnexit and due to its fast firing rate you are basicly stuck in spawn for 15 seconds or you run the other way round and you are still risking of getting hit by the mortar.

I think you are focussing too much on veltins type of players and forget 90% of the playerbase just wants to play ETpub without sitting in spawn drinking beer.

S3AL
Posts: 56
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:55 pm

Precisely what I'm saying all along. Majority of hirntot players are normal. We are looking how to limit the 3% shitheads who ruin it for the other 97%. Quite a simple formula... what do shitheads do that others dont - 1. High Team Damage, 2. Spamming without engagement (spamming from spawn). 3. Care about reaching lvl3/lvl4 asap and will do crap like throwing ammo in spawn or spamming a location with high team damage probability.

From the very start I know exactly who im focused at, I wrote it after all. And all the limitations I propose are in favor of the 97% and limit the 3% shitheads. From my point of view, no one else but shitheads will care about lvl3 or lvl4. Thus I suggested put everything down to lvl2. This way also you are doing it in a 'fair' way. Limiting just fops without any other class... is not fair, even though lvl3 fops on pubs with lots of players is OP as hell.

Yesterday I played battery. Got TKed 6 times in 5 minutes. I stayed. Then a minute later I saw our panzer kill 3 of our teammates, not because it was... oops an accident, but because he wanted to kill 1 axis knowing he might kill his teammates, of course... he killed no axis and made 3 tks, with ZERO consequences. I left after that. Cos, whats the fucking point playing with trash like that? Team damage should be solved on all maps, not just oasis. And its not a drastic change for fuck sake, you are just lowering one limit number that only little percentage of players ever reach. So lets not be dramatic, all these changes are pretty much something that only a few would notice, the toxic few mostly. And that doesnt limit them from playing et, it limits them from playing et toxically. So they can adapt or fuck off. They'll adapt, cos there is no other place to fuck off to. Qpaq plays on no HW quite often if theres more players on noHW comparing to other server, I see him there - thats a drastic change, where HW classes have been removed completely - obviously didnt stop him from playing there, he adapts, takes SMG and plays.

I mentioned this twice already - How about turn the damn team damage off. Whats the downside to that? I see the downsides on a pro level, dont see it on a fun public level. Why would anyone leave if team damage is off?

Anyway, we are quacking too much about small changes. Im gonna back off from this topic a bit. What I suggested last stands as a good starting point imo - apply some of the changes on one map and see who'll notice. If only a few notice, apply it everywhere else. Define 'toxic' players and if only they notice you got a BINGO - perfect change to apply everywhere. Players leaving the server is just nonsense, if that was the case, hirntot would already be empty because of all the teamdamage and spam going on and thats a way bigger reason to leave than limiting classes to lvl2, or other little crap we suggested.

evirdrevo
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by evirdrevo » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:33 pm

> How about turn the damn team damage off.

Nice, RTCW flying around with airstrikes on beach to the objective or getting on the hills on assault. No teamdamage means you fly across the map like in RTCW when you got hit with spawnshield up.

I think you are looking at this from a totally different point of view compared to pub players. I share your view but I have played pub longer now than I did competetive and its just part of every pub I ever played. I normally played goldrush main gate at tank instead of spawning back. I just know if I play main on hirntot I will get destroyed by team spam which has 0 relation to the allied spawn, its just random spam hoping to get random kills, whether they be axis or allies. Personally I always try to take spots where I can keep as far away from my teammates as possible, max one two guys around me since you will get blocked and teamdamaged all the time. But that's pub for ya.

You are pointing at 3% of the userbase, yet you want to change the whole pub because of them. I'd say focus on finding way to give people an incentive to do less damage. That is the whole issue. Normally there is an incentive not to do teamkills in ET, the complaints. Since it was abuse it got removed so people gotten used to doing random and avoidable teamkills, thats why I suggested the teamdamage limit script ages ago. It already stops a lot, I remember sasha doing 2500td on oasis every single time before it got implemented.

Again, don't get me wrong. I totally share your view about the level 2 but I know most people on pubs wouldn't agree with that.
Last edited by evirdrevo on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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