Can we do something about the team damage?

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hyperloop
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by hyperloop » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:54 am

"Everyone CAN control how much team damage they do. You cant do 650 in one hit accidentally. No one will get banned (kicked), they'll just be more careful and do less td aka be less toxic shits."

I made a statement of personal experience, to counter this view. You made this topic based on your experience. How am I deviating from topic?

Also, what does what side I play most got anything to do with it? I find this very interesting.

Liquid Sn.
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by Liquid Sn. » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:15 am

1. Before this topic was created I never rly had a problem with excessive TK's. Sure there are few guys who never really care about it and TK every map, but it is just them being themselves. I don't expect any different from them, usually those are low skilled fops or panzers. I would say that my team deaths per map vary from 0 to maybe 3-4, one or two of those could be from a "non paying attention TKer", the rest are just accidents. So it doesn't affect me that much. I don't think that lowering TD to 1000 will do anything, because it is very easy to avoid consequences - join spec or reconnect.

2. If we want a wider perspective perhaps we could create an ingame vote:
"What do you think about Team Damage kicking point?"
1) Increase
2) Keep as it is
3) Decrease

3. Just to add some mathematics to this post I'll calculate some players Damage Given + Team Damage Given and make a percentage of Team Damage Given:
Qpa 3,8%
Kiano 4,07%
S3al 2,35%
Monty 10,33%
Innocent 11,79%
Veltins 11,66%
Drevo 3,68%

As you can see. Low skill players tend to do way more Team Damage compared to Overall Damage(both damage and team damage combined).

S3AL
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:41 am

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:20 am

hyperloop wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:54 am
"Everyone CAN control how much team damage they do. You cant do 650 in one hit accidentally. No one will get banned (kicked), they'll just be more careful and do less td aka be less toxic shits."

I made a statement of personal experience, to counter this view. You made this topic based on your experience. How am I deviating from topic?

Also, what does what side I play most got anything to do with it? I find this very interesting.
Actually thats not true. Wont lie, TD annoyed me since day 1 on hirntot, but I didnt plan to say a word about it. This topic was triggered because I've seen, multiple times, specially recently, 2 players fucking eachother up - 1 guy tked the other guy 2-3 times, probably even said the bullshit 'sorry', that other guy then went for his revenge and started tking the guy who tked him and it continues back and forth ... and u get a toxic atmosphere affecting the whole team. The sad thing was, the guy who went for a revenge kinda always had a point... because thats the only thing you can do on the server at the moment, just TK back someone whos recklessly team killing you over and over again. And you'll probably get kicked bcs your TK will be categorized as on 'purpose'. So I was thinking - somethings not right there and lets bring it up see what people say. Its a general problem on the server, but no one talks about it, people just solve it by raging on each other (verbally or gameplay wise). Including me, until now.

Sides - Impact of TD is waaaay worse in allies. Allies is just hard man if you play objective and if your teammates add to that difficulty, well, you get my point. You gave a perfect example with Qpaq. A guy sitting in his spawn team killing people who are pushing for objective (what this game is about). Literally every time you shoot the mortar without looking at the map you risk killing the most valuable teammates (the ones closest to objective). You see how that can be specially annoying?

hyperloop
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by hyperloop » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:38 am

Not particularly. Liquid just clarified it. You said that
Newcomers/amateurs dont do a lot of team damage.
With all the heavies QPA does, 3.8 is really low.

Also why do you say this:
you know, ppl who swap when teams are unbalanced and shit like that.

S3AL
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:41 am

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:06 am

Liquid Sn. wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:15 am
1. Before this topic was created I never rly had a problem with excessive TK's. Sure there are few guys who never really care about it and TK every map, but it is just them being themselves. I don't expect any different from them, usually those are low skilled fops or panzers. I would say that my team deaths per map vary from 0 to maybe 3-4, one or two of those could be from a "non paying attention TKer", the rest are just accidents. So it doesn't affect me that much. I don't think that lowering TD to 1000 will do anything, because it is very easy to avoid consequences - join spec or reconnect.

2. If we want a wider perspective perhaps we could create an ingame vote:
"What do you think about Team Damage kicking point?"
1) Increase
2) Keep as it is
3) Decrease

3. Just to add some mathematics to this post I'll calculate some players Damage Given + Team Damage Given and make a percentage of Team Damage Given:
Qpa 3,8%
Kiano 4,07%
S3al 2,35%
Monty 10,33%
Innocent 11,79%
Veltins 11,66%
Drevo 3,68%

As you can see. Low skill players tend to do way more Team Damage compared to Overall Damage(both damage and team damage combined).
About skill... not sure skill plays a big role here. For example monty is way more experienced in this game than me... how long he been playing? for 15 years? Do you really believe after 15 years he didnt learn to not call that arty that always tks a bunch of his teammates? I dont, i just think he's a fucking asshole and plays only in a way that gets him more frags irregardless of how much td he outputs. The spam (which causes most of the team kills) really requires minimum skill: fops - reposition the arty, mortar - watch the god damn map, engs - dont plant mines if you are teammates are constantly there, its just some basic game sense im sure everyone learns after few months of ET.

Qpaq is skilled, but he'll tk you every single time he gets an eye on the enemy and you are near it. He wont hesitate for a second. He's an asshole thats all

New comers/amateurs rly dont do much team damage. You can see them being careful and learning the game

TD in general is not a problem, reckless TD is - thats the one that pisses people off.

And you're right, it is just a couple of players who are the problem, I dont think its the low skilled ones though, I just think its the assholes. Very often its the same players names showing up in 'we got a problem' topics. And yeah its hard to isolate this without affecting everyone else.

If you do an ingame vote, which is probably a good idea, maybe a better question is: "Do you think there is too much team damage?" Yes - no

-----------------------------------------
How did that voting system work that drevo talked about? You get tked and then you can put a complaint? How many complaints required for a kick? Maybe a combination of complaints and that TD kick limit number i was talking about (650) could be the way to go? Eg. if u get 3 complaints and you've given 650TD = u are most likely an asshole and u get kicked. Cornn? Doable? Could be good, complaints are abusable (again by assholes, rare) but if u double check it with TD given its a pretty safe bet that dude's a cunt

S3AL
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:41 am

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:22 am

hyperloop wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:38 am
Not particularly. Liquid just clarified it. You said that
Newcomers/amateurs dont do a lot of team damage.
With all the heavies QPA does, 3.8 is really low.
3.8 turned out low because qpaq does a lot of damage as well (NOT team damage), that doesnt remove the fact that he does a lot of TEAM damage. Liquid added damage as 'skill' to try and show that low skillers (low damage) do more td, or that high skillers (high dmg givers) do less, not that qpaq doesnt do a lot of td. But my opinion is that skill doesnt have much to do with it, its the 'assholsholism' (tking recklessly). Impossible to just use numbers to figure out who the assholes are, requires some human factor, thats why maybe what i mentioned in previous post: numbers (some lower td limit) + human decision (complaint) might be a good combination. And if both are satisfied, kicky

Also why do you say this:
you know, ppl who swap when teams are unbalanced and shit like that.
[/quote]

Because those are the least selfish people on the server who genuinely care about fairplay and that everyone, not just them, are having fun. Of course their opinion matters the most, no doubt about that

hyperloop
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by hyperloop » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:30 am

In the context of that post, I think I know what you meant. Which is fine, I can read between the lines..

S3AL
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:41 am

Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by S3AL » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:49 am

hyperloop wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:30 am
In the context of that post, I think I know what you meant. Which is fine, I can read between the lines..
well you shouldnt be reading between the lines, bcs there is nothing about you whatsoever in that sentence. Drevo could though - axis only trash :D

c0rnn
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by c0rnn » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:44 am

S3AL wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:17 am
You got any stats you can track or generate on this cornn? Like kicks per day invoked by high td? Dunno if thats logged.
Yes, it's logged, I could grep it from logs.
S3AL wrote:Maybe a combination of complaints and that TD kick limit number i was talking about (650) could be the way to go? Eg. if u get 3 complaints and you've given 650TD = u are most likely an asshole and u get kicked. Cornn? Doable? Could be good, complaints are abusable (again by assholes, rare) but if u double check it with TD given its a pretty safe bet that dude's a cunt
Not doable.

I don't think there is any automatic way of solving this. The best idea I heard was map-based max TD from drevo, with e.g. Goldrush and Oasis having high max TD and other maps less. Railgun for example shouldn't net that much TD really, so maybe lower the limit there. The question then is which maps get the TD lowered and how much?

User avatar
TechHead
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Re: Can we do something about the team damage?

Post by TechHead » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:06 am

The whole teamdmg issue is not a simple one. As hirntot gets crowded heavily in the evening everything starts to get out of control imo.
more and more ppl are swarming around the maps, which allows for massive teamdamage for spam players like arty or mortar or simple nade tossing.

So I am not sure whether ppl are reckless or just unskilled or if it boils down to errors a lot because they simply have a very narrow margin of failure concerning where to put the arty or the mortar.

for me, it is the sheer number of players that bug me most of all, not the behaviour of certain players.
talking about mine stepping, yes this also happens alot due to the massive number of players, some just don't care too much and yes some step em on purpose, because they are placed fucking badly so the actually block teammates instead of blocking the opposing team.

One interesting side note: I get more teamdamage when I play Axis yet it pisses me off way more when I play allies (although I tend to get way less teamdamage as allies) because teamdamage on the attacking team has way worse consequences.

Now there is my baised view to teamdamage: you cannot estimate the damage you do playing a spam class on a crowded server, you should face the consequences, as you spoil the fun for the rest of your team. So yes, I am for lowering the value, and yes, pls do it map based as some maps are just prone for heavy teamdamage.

cheers
Techie

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