Does Bremen represent what Hirntot wants?

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Monty on the Run
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Does Bremen represent what Hirntot wants?

Post by Monty on the Run » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:16 am

With all the changes made to Battery, Railgun, Oasis, etc it is my understanding that this was done to have the battlefield feel less hopeless for the weaker players. Left out of this equation is Bremen, which is a map that feels very hopeless for axis.

First the good part: Bremen is an action-packed map where the enemy is always straight in front of you. Lots to shoot at and impossible to get lost.

Where Bremen falls short is that this map was never intended for 13 vs 13 players (which is usually the numbers present in the evenings). It’s an absolute chaos of a battlefield, especially when this map comes at the end of the campaign where most classes are level 3 or 4. Yesterday I played fops on this map and was able to peg most of the allies back into their first spawn. Whoever managed to get past the arty were quickly picked off by 4-5 rambo medics leaning around the corners. This is exactly the sort of gameplay you’ve been trying to weed out with the latest changes.

Once the flag is captured, the imbalance of the map turns heavily in allies’ favor. This is because axis have a 30-second spawn interval. Allies now head towards the axi spawn house and wait outside there like a pack of wolves. Forget about objective play; picking off innocent lambs sitting inside that spawn house is much more fun. THREE exits to that spawn house where allies can now enter or rain in with grenades and rifle nades! Unless axis happen to be as strong as allies they always get spawnraped. All it takes is for one axi to go AFK or play mortar, and their team is now pegged back into their own spawn house.

What’s worse it that there is no clear solution to the spawnrape on this map. If you lower the axi spawn interval, then defending the truck right next to the spawn house becomes too easy. This area of the map is poorly designed. No matter what changes are done, nothing can address this.

Put yourself in the position of a new player (or a weaker player) deploying in the axi spawn house on Bremen. Do you think he will enjoy getting spawnraped for 5-10 minutes straight, spending more time being dead than actually playing? These newbies often don’t realize that getting killed by a nade inside that spawn house is not technically against the rules, thus they get extremely agitated. As the title of this topic says: is this what Hirntot wants?

Another card heavily in allies’ favor is that the truck cannot be destroyed. This means that any XP the axi fops or soldiers will have built up in order to effectively destroy the truck and prevent allies from escaping with the obj is now rendered useless. Even if you manage to kill 5 allies with arty or heavy weapons around that truck, there will still be another 5 allies roaming around it to keep it moving. When allies steal the truck, I don’t even bother trying to run after it. The only thing that will stop it moving are the truck barriers (which usually are impossible for axis to construct when the map is overcrowded with 13 enemies).

Maybe I’m in a minority, but I never understood what the big appeal is about Bremen. It’s a map everyone knows, yes, but that’s not really an argument to keep it. Any map can be a map “everyone knows” if you just give it time. The map looks ugly and the gameplay is even more ugly.

To think that all this time instead of Bremen we could be playing MarketGarden, Baserace, Tram Siege, or even Kung Fu Grip – wide area maps that are designed to hold 26 players and without no inherent flaws in relates to spawn placement. It’s enough to make you cry :cry:

evirdrevo
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Re: Does Bremen represent what Hirntot wants?

Post by evirdrevo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:27 am

Bremen would work if allied actually did objective. On any normal map if the attacking team is near to finishing the objective there will be a point where the attacking team destroys the defenders as the map is about to end. It shouldn't be an issue if the attacking team actually finishes the map, but these days obj play seems far removed from the old days.

I don't like Bremen either but it is still ok compared to base. Base is an RTCW map. In ET you have A (allied spawn) B (Axis spawn) C (objective). In RTCW you had A allied spawn, B objective, C Axis spawn. This isn't a crystal clear distinction but most RTCW maps run this mapplan. Base was not made for a 13vs13 pub its a 6vs6 obj map where the gameplay relies heavily on grouped up attacks. Base just fails to be decent pub map. Of all the new maps only Frostbite provides good gameplay which doesnt just end in 'spam the chokes' and is actually entertaining.

I'm not sure if there are any better maps than bremen, but base could be replaced with something better, I'm just not sure which map. Bremen could work, maybe we can try another version, I personally always preferred the second edition.

hamsta
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Re: Does Bremen represent what Hirntot wants?

Post by hamsta » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:13 pm

Monty on the Run wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:16 am

Another card heavily in allies’ favor is that the truck cannot be destroyed. This means that any XP the axi fops or soldiers will have built up in order to effectively destroy the truck and prevent allies from escaping with the obj is now rendered useless. Even if you manage to kill 5 allies with arty or heavy weapons around that truck, there will still be another 5 allies roaming around it to keep it moving. When allies steal the truck, I don’t even bother trying to run after it. The only thing that will stop it moving are the truck barriers (which usually are impossible for axis to construct when the map is overcrowded with 13 enemies).

We had the same problem and changed to:
Bremen Truckmod https://www.wolffiles.de/index.php?filebase&fid=4737

Unfortunately it doesn't solve the problem with the overall ugliness of the map.^^

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Monty on the Run
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Re: Does Bremen represent what Hirntot wants?

Post by Monty on the Run » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:08 pm

evirdrevo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:27 am
I'm not sure if there are any better maps than bremen, but base could be replaced with something better, I'm just not sure which map.
Of course there are better maps than Bremen!

One map that springs to mind (in addition to the ones already mentioned) is V2 Base Final. This map is the perfect size for a 26 man battlefield. Lots of different objectives to keep a team occupied with, as well as hiding places and secret entrances. There's a wide variety of ways you can do objective on this map, and that makes for good replayability. I don't see what Hirntot could possibly risk by removing Bremen and replacing it with V2 Base Final - the server is overcrowded and will remain full as long as the maps selected are half decent. V2 Base Final is more than decent - it's great!

The main appeal of Hirntot is the combination of ETPro + playerskill + banned cheaters - not what maps are on offer. You can afford to experiment.

s0nic
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Re: Does Bremen represent what Hirntot wants?

Post by s0nic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 pm

Bremen is an absolute fail map outside of 6v6 teamplay realm. Most of the times i've played it on hirntot i was just eagerly waiting for it to be over.

Base is pretty much the same, it either ends in 3 minutes or nothing happens for 15 or whatever the timelimit is. I think they should both either be replaced or removed.

I think you should seriously consider Raid, there's a video on the mapper's site but it's definitely worth downloading the map and running it locally for a few minutes, real gem of a map imo and it could possibly see good play on hirntot. It's decently sized, but not too big so it's equally playable 4v4 and 12v12. Also the mapper made a huge effort making this, it looks and feels like a stock map tbh.
Last edited by s0nic on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Monty on the Run
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Re: Does Bremen represent what Hirntot wants?

Post by Monty on the Run » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:09 am

s0nic wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 pm
Also the mapper made a huge effort making this, it looks and feels like a stock map tbh.
Good call, you can usually tell from the screenshots how much time/thinking have gone into making the map. Raid is awesome, and the fact that it's only 3 years since it was created is another good reason to add it. Keeps the game feeling fresh. Not to mention that it would inspire mapmakers to keep creating content if a flagship like Hirntot promotes their work.

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